Nov 21 Sacramento
state_capitol
Body Piercing Law?
Published: August 24, 2005

SACRAMENTO—Legislation reinstating a ban on body piercing of minors without parental permission was approved Tuesday by the state Senate.

The measure by Assemblywoman Sharon Runner, R-Lancaster, would restore a ban that expired on Jan. 1.

The bill would make it an infraction punishable by a fine of up to $250 to perform body piercing on most parts of the body of a person under age 18 without the permission of a parent or guardian. Ear piercing would be exempt.

A 35-0 vote returned the bill to the Assembly for a vote on Senate amendments. 

Reader's Comments
"go back to england JFT. like wtf, you're not even in america? minors over the age of 14 or15 should be allowed to get piercings."
-> Posted by fcuk JFT / Nov 07, 2008
"F uck u all let us minors get pierced!!"
-> Posted by giga / Nov 05, 2008
"(continued from last two posts.) I'm not saying if you can't do it legally go have a friend do it. But I think that raising the age limit isn't going to make anything better. It'll just stop the REALLY stupid kids from going to those scary places.


The law was in good faith but really it's still failing and they should fix this.(end)"
-> Posted by Beccaface / Sep 09, 2008
"(continue) And at 18 you'd be an adult and legally be mature enough to make the decision whether it be bad or not.

Like I said before though. It should be lowered to 16 in all the states for those sorts of piercings.
I'm 17, and I couldn't get my lip done. So instead I just went to a friend and had him do it. My mom didn't support my decision and I didn't feel like waiting anymore. (continue still)"
-> Posted by Beccaface / Sep 09, 2008
"Okay first off. I believe that the age should be lowered to 16 for things like lip piercings and belly button piercings. Yes it is your own body. But the law was put there to keep you safe from people who don't take the right precautions and from the people who pierce and don't know what they are doing. If you're 16 they assume you won't research or think logically about the place you're getting whatever pierced at."
-> Posted by Beccaface / Sep 09, 2008
"Yea, 15 year old here! This is such a stupid law, it's OUR bodies! Besides, my friend Wynter pierced her belly button herself because her mom wouldn't sign a paper. Anyway,does the ear piercing apply to anywhere on the ear? I'm thinking of getting a second one on my ears and I don't know if it would be illegal and well, I'd rather not have to pay any charges or make anyone else do so."
-> Posted by dancer / Aug 26, 2008
"continued.

that really doesnt sound very nice does it? rasberry there is a good reason for having laws , particularly here there are too many bad piercers who pierce just cus they can or feel like it. how would it feel to be 16 and have some serious nerve damage due to an eye brow piercing and have to go home to your mom and explain why your face is in mucho pain"
-> Posted by JFT / Jul 29, 2008
"continued

i am really sick of hearing people whine and complain about the whole
"its my body i can do to it what i please"
yea tis your body but do you really want to go stab a safety pin through your lip or a sewing needle through you tongue? thats just bloody stupid.... the biggest thing here is the insane cost of piercing that is stopping teens from getting work done. "hey mom can I have $700 (this is just under $100 US btw) for a set of snake bites?""
-> Posted by JFT / Jul 29, 2008
"continued
but like come on people so many things can go wrong and particularly when your 14 and incredibly stupid, do you really think you'd be good about listening to your piercer about aftercare or not? I've got 2ga lobe 8ga lobe, 16ga high lobe, rook and labret piercings. I waited till I was 16 so my parents would let me get my first one and I kinda got the others within the year."
-> Posted by JFT / Jul 29, 2008
"continued.

One, I repeat one studio here refuses point blank to touch anyone under the age of 16 for piercings 18 for tattoos and they check ids! i got kinda lucky at said studio and didnt get carded but thats not the point right now. mind you i hate the law as much as the next whiny teenager but atleast i can see that it is there for a purpose. honestly i think 16 or even 14 sounds right for standard piercings, i think surface piercings should be 18+ same as tattoos."
-> Posted by JFT / Jul 29, 2008
"ok, i'm 17 an an apprentice body piercer. no i dont live in the US, i live in hong kong. here there is no law what so ever a 10 year old could walk into a studio and ask for a lip piercing and it would be totally up to the discretion of the piercer to decide if they are going to pierce said 10 year old in the first place."
-> Posted by JFT / Jul 29, 2008
"Can a teen, 15 years old get a belly piercing witout a parents consent? In the state of New York? Could someone please tell me what the law say's. Thank You."
-> Posted by Francois / Jun 17, 2008
"<font color = red > lawzzz r soo gay i totally agree wit my buddy =] famouse ;]"
-> Posted by MaRhIa =] / Jun 12, 2008
"I THINK IT SHOULD REALLY BE UP TO US TEENS IF WE WANT A BODY PIERCING. I DONT THINK PEOPLE SHUD BUTT IN ITS OUR BODY SO FUKK OFF =] CAPESH <3 WELL YEA LAWZ ARE GAY THIS DAYZ =0!"
-> Posted by SOMEONE FAMOUSE ;] / Jun 12, 2008
"wth does being a ###### have to do with any of this? Kyle makes a good point, as do some of the other people here, I don't see why they're ###### because of it.

As for the ban, thats just stupid. I have nothing really to say about it other than its a stupid law, and who ever thought to reinstate it is probably a parent whose child went and got they're nose or navel pierced without their permission, and they're so butthurt over it, that they wanted to screw all the other minors over."
-> Posted by Mackenzie. / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 13 I hope this helped some people out and can we all, including the adults here grow up just a little bit? Learn the facts, voice your opinion, stop arguing about whos right and whos wrong and stop with the profanity."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 12 Now, I'm not saying that people should or shouldn't do this, I just think they need to take the time to sit down and weigh out the pros and cons for themselves and their life, not just "Oh this looks so cool!". Personally I love mine and plain on replacing it on every vacation if the hole closes up when on duty."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 11 Theres a time when were out hanging with friends and having a good time and theres another when we enter our professions what ever they be, where we need to be professional, clean cut, responsible and respective. I don't think most people who get external or ones that outwardly show such as lip, nose and eyebrow piercings realize that in the professional world many of these looks are not acceptable and to think that it will all your life you are kidding yourself."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 10 Oddly enough most places were unwilling to service me being that I am under 18 even though I am emancipated. One one last note I am enlisting into the army this July but they require that I remove my lip ring when on duty this brings up a vary important topic no one has talked about that I would like to make clear right here and now."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 9 In this cause used hot water and epsion salts if possible in the form of a compress and then flush it out with hydrogen proxcide.

As with every social rule there is an exception, but I would imagination that most minors are old enough to chose educatedly if a piercing is right for them for what ever reason. I myself went out and got myself lip ring fairly recently for my own personal reasons."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 8 So its a no brainier that almost w of all piercing get infected during the healing processes and after. An infection is any moment a foreign microbe enters the body and causes an adverse reaction. You have all heard of some poor persons piercing site that has become a wide spread infection leading to scar tissue. This isn't the case, most infections are as simple as puss leaving the body."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 7 Another big worry of nerve damage is from the eyebrow caused by infection resulting in paralysis of the side of the face correlating with the damage. My guess is that this doesn't happen vary often, nerve damage that is, but it happens enough that its an issue and should be taken into consideration.

Infection: All Piercing Sites
Lets take a look at how bacteria works, most of the stuff that we fall ill from grows and thrives in warm, dark and wet environments."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 6 But if done professionally almost all the time sterling silver, gold or copper is used. Precious metals have almost a nonexistent Allergic Reaction Percentile.

Nerve Damage:
I spent the longest time looking this one up the most I could find out was the places that would have a higher chance of damage and no actual statics The highest chance of nerve damage came from the tongue"
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 5 Allergic Reactions:
From just a few moments of digging around I found that in the mid-1990's almost all of the allergic reactions were due to nickel these reactions occurred about .3 of the time. Ranging from full-scale rejection from the body, shock or such simple things as discomfort or minor irritation. My guess is thats this allergic trend to nickel is increasing."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 4 On to another note several of these teen who illegally get pierced from their friends are ether uneducated about the hazards of an untrained hand or don't care I have a list of facts about such health concerns."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 3 I, like other people believe piercing should be limited to people of the age of 16 or older and that these should exclude the possibility of nipple(In the case of a woman) and genitalia of minors. Handling these areas are not a form of sexual abuse or exploitation like some thing if it is carried out in a professional and business like manner."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 2 too or not. I'd like to point out the fact that people will do what they want to do and we can't really stop their choices. Now I'll be honest here.

Theres a point when young is too young, sex, permeate body art(such as tattooing), smoking and doing a large assortment of drugs among several other actions fall into this category. I think that there is truly a point when too young is too young because of the fact alone that peoples minds are maturing till the age of 24."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"Pt. 1 Forgive me now but this is going to be a vary long comment. This is a bit of an older topic but I'd like to have my say. I am an emancipated minor, seventeen-years old. Personally I'm a little worried over this issue. As it was said earlier if you read back in this topic by a licensed tattoo and piercing artiest that kids of all ages will pierce themselves if they wanted too or not. I'd like to point out the fact that people will do what they want ..."
-> Posted by Kyle / Jun 12, 2008
"i think that if the person is at a suitable age in their teens then its up to them ..they know the risks of what sould happen so if theyre willing to take that risk then let them"
-> Posted by maddie / May 27, 2008
"I went to a place in Berkeley, CA when I was 15 and they said that they can pierce ears at any age without parental consent."
-> Posted by anonymous / May 20, 2008
"I believe that a minor 16 or over should be able to make the decision to get a piercing. Mainly for the reason that, even if it is a mistake they will regret later, they don't know this now, therefore most will end up getting it pierced by a friend or something and risk not having it done right."
-> Posted by Charissa / May 09, 2008
"I believe that it isn't right for the state to decide what they cannot do. I think this is a decision that should be made between the minor and their parent but thats not always what happens and is another big reason the kids are piercing stuff themselves. i have a friend who pierced her own tongue........"
-> Posted by Charissa / May 09, 2008
"She hit a nerve the first time she did it and now can't feel anything on the left side of her tongue. If she had been able to go to a professional, this would not have happened."
-> Posted by Charissa / May 09, 2008
"1st of 5 coments- I am an out of state body piercer in a licensed studio. I have been Piercing for just under 10 years and take my job very seriously. I used to be strictly an 18 and older piercer... But after seeing the aftermath of kids getting their tongues, and what have you, pierced in the bathrooms of high schools because they weren't old enough I was horrified! And not just one high school a few where doing this. These kids where in the 16-17 year old range."
-> Posted by Tom / May 08, 2008
"Continued from above- I removed the poorly done problem piercings and sat them down and explained the dangers of these unsafe and unsanitary piercings. I offered to re pierce them when the original piercing was healed in an effort to help stop the spreading of disease. These kids at 16 years old took the information I had given them and relayed the risks to the people doing these dangerous piercings."
-> Posted by Tom / May 08, 2008
"Continued- It has been over 6 years since this has happened and I have been piercing 16 years and older ever since (obviously not nipples or genitals) and I have not heard of any more cases of these unsafe practices. I have only had one angry parent (actually grandmother) come into the shop since then who I patiently sat and talked to. She said she understood where I was coming from and simply asked me not to pierce her granddaughter if she came back in, which I agreed to."
-> Posted by Tom / May 08, 2008
"Continued- In closing I think the vast majority of young Adults 16 years and older are responsible enough to get a piercing on their own (of course there is an exception to every rule), and I for one am not willing to be responsible for the possible repercussions of their only option to get pierced in a dirty overused under cleaned bathroom by someone with no experience using the same needle to pierce everyone."
-> Posted by Tom / May 08, 2008
"Continued from above- I also think that if parents maintain a healthy relationship with their teenagers they will respect their wishes... "As long as you are living under my roof" speech comes to mind (once again there are exceptions to every rule). I hope this helps us all come to better decisions in the future, thanks for reading, Tom 30ish years old."
-> Posted by Tom / May 08, 2008
"i think they should be allowed since is their body and stuff they have their choice to do it."
-> Posted by i hate jonathan / May 07, 2008
"I think that any minor, over the age of 16 should be able to get a body piercing without parental consent. If they are trusting cars, and sex with these kids, then why not piercings or tattoos?"
-> Posted by Cassandra / May 06, 2008
"i wanted my belly button done and I'm 16 turning 17 and i had to ask my mother i just don't want to see little kids under the age of 16 getting it done unless parents are with them because what if the child piercing got infected it will scar and they are not old enough to make there own mind up yet 16 to 17 still should be aloud to get it done with a letter of the parent and a family member saying that the letter is done by the parent and if not then they can contact the parents."
-> Posted by TM / May 03, 2008
"I think that it should be lowered to like 16 because if they think that a person that age is responsible enough to be a driver...chose to have sexy legally then that person should be able to make a decision about their body"
-> Posted by Emily / Apr 30, 2008
"I think that teens over 15 should be aloud to pierce or get tattos if they want. I mean it our choose im 15 and i think that its not fair. my mom said i can so why not i want to get my nose pierced so let me. its our choice and its our body and we should be aloud to do whatever we want to it."
-> Posted by Aubrey H. / Apr 29, 2008
"Continued here--
However, she let me get my nose done. But i think that as long as you are 15+ you should be able to make smart decisions, and parents should let their children go to a certain extent with their piercings. It is not our fault for wanting to do things and experiment with our bodies. I think that parents should understand how children want to do these things and let them do it. Afterall, they are doing it to their own body, not their parents."
-> Posted by D.Y / Apr 17, 2008
"I personally think that piercing your body or ears is fine. People should be allowed to do so around the age of 9 and above. I had 5 piercings by the time i was in 5th grade (11 years of age)
Now i'm 14, almost 15 and my mom won't let me get my eyebrow pierced. I got my belly pierced but she made me take it out. Continued---"
-> Posted by D.Y / Apr 17, 2008
"its the kids body. at 14 they can make decisions on their own. parents can give opinions, but they shouldnt try to control every part of their kids life. that will make them rebel! then theyll get more."
-> Posted by Panther Girl / Apr 16, 2008
"They are not there to help you through everything. If you want to go and do something stupid, go ahead, when you have AIDS or hepatitus, don't expect your parents to help because you wanted to be a stupid little ###hole that thinks he knows it all. There are laws in place to protect you and you should respect that."
-> Posted by Brian / Apr 06, 2008
"Wouldn't it have been nice to have a law in place to protect you (age law or health law), you might not have the problem if you would have waited untiil you were smart enough to make the decision. I know all you minors think you are olkd enough to do what you want but you need to wake up and realize what the real world is like and know that you can't fall back on 'mom and dad' whenever you want."
-> Posted by Brian / Apr 06, 2008
"this comment is to Jon. You are a screwed up little ###hole. What would you do if you got a piercing or a tattoo without a parents decision, and contracted a disease or got scarred so bad nothing could be done about it?"
-> Posted by Brian / Apr 06, 2008
"I don't think piercing is expressing any "individuality." Most of the time, people do it because their friends just got it done. Isn't that why most people do a lot of stupid things? Because their friends did it? I think so."
-> Posted by nikki / Apr 06, 2008
"i think at the age of 14 it should be leagle for children to get pearsings because you can always take it out and let it close up..as for tattoos i think the age limit should be 16 and up...because at that age your more mature and can make decissions pretty much on your own...=)..."
-> Posted by Cecilia / Apr 04, 2008
"ok i 14 and my dad took me to get my eyebrow pierced for my birthday and they said they wouldnt do it unless i was 16 with parental permission"
-> Posted by france / Mar 30, 2008
"im 12 years old and they said that you had to be 14 years, and i had my parets with me!"
-> Posted by kelly / Mar 23, 2008
"I think everyone who is trying to control kids are pathetic anyone over 16 should be allowed to get what they want its their body if they want a piercing its their body their decision!!!! this is why kids end up hating their parents you got a problem deal with it! its their body let them do whatever they like to it!
you cant control someones body!"
-> Posted by Leanne / Mar 20, 2008
"I'm sick of illiterate children trying to pass themselves off as adults. Most of which havn't lived enough life to know anything about it ! You are your parents PROPERTY until you are 18 years of age. In most cases it's to your advantage to wait until you gain the true mental capacity to be able to make competent descisions for yourselves. With out mommy and daddy's guidence, most of you morons would be dying of infection because you can't even follow simple healing instructions."
-> Posted by redline / Mar 20, 2008
"....there are artists that are in the industry to creat, and there are people who are in the industry to make a quick buck. i went to a shade place to have my nipple pierced because no one else would do them because i was only 17 and always had problems with it when i turned 18 i went to a reputable place and they said that the guy used a cheep quality of jewlery which slowed the healing time because my body was reaction to the metal."
-> Posted by Amy Major / Mar 17, 2008
"Im doing a research paper on body piercings and there are alot of dangers of body piercings. dont get my wrong, i'm all for self expresion and think tattoos, body piercing, and body modification is cool, but there are too many people that are making un informed desisions. i dont think neccesarily placing an age limit is the solution. i think regulating piercing parlors is a better answer. we should have them registered and liscened to prevent unsanitary conditions and dirty jobs. continued ->"
-> Posted by Amy Major of Seattle WA / Mar 17, 2008
"you may want to start 4 down from this one not counting it. i had to write out my comment in parts. so this is part 5 the ones below are parts 4,3,2,1 in that order from this one.

continued-
JON
a smart yet dumb kid who‎s tierd of being ran over bye a bunch of lazy ppl who gets millions of dollars bye sitting on there asses."
-> Posted by jon / Feb 27, 2008
"continued-but the law wants us to #### up and pay for it when were ligal adults. #### off. i wanna know every thing b4 i have to pay
the damn fucked up law that we have. theres no reason they should b taking our rights away. idk havve fun reading this. and if it makes since have someone
else readit. some day our word will be heard. and the only way that can happen. is if they sit back and lisen."
-> Posted by jon / Feb 27, 2008
"continued-why not sooner than to make the mistake when were older and we cant fall back on our parents to help. personally i think
that i should have learned every thing b4 i go out there and live on my own. that way i can say i didnt have to fall back on my parents bc the law allowd me to
learn what i was supost to learn."
-> Posted by jon / Feb 27, 2008
"contiuned - other than that they wanna stop kids from doig somthing that looks stupid or hidious to them. but yet at the age of 18 we can do almost
any thing we ####### want to. personally i think that at the age of 16 we should have a lil more say. i mean comon. were ####### teenagers for gods sake.
we have to learn soon or latter"
-> Posted by jon / Feb 27, 2008
"‎it should b my choice. my decision my body. yes i am a kid but if i know whats going on b4 i do this then i should know to keep the thing clean and also
know that if the damn thing hurts and is looking like its infected then to have the brains enough to pull the damn thing out and heal it. idk i personaly
thinks its bull. some parents think they know best. but really if the parent havnt had it done then what all do they know. they know that it looks stupid
and thats all."
-> Posted by jon / Feb 27, 2008
"I think that before you get a piercing you should educate yourself about it. That's the real problem that we have. No one cares/knows about the consequences.
and don't just get your friend to give you snake bites for $20. go to a professional and have your parents take you, you might form a good relationship with them.
I'm not sure how.
but you might.

I'm 15 and I think once your educated about things it's your choice what you do with it (whether you're 18 or not.)"
-> Posted by Catie / Feb 19, 2008
"but blood borne pathogens aren't the only problems, you could get an infection and have chunks of skin removed! your body could reject them and you could have huge scars. and think about even having your ears gauged. some people go to 5/8''. wtf??
But it is our body. and most of the time getting infected doesn't happen and if you have real jewelry then your body PROBABLY won't reject it."
-> Posted by Catie / Feb 19, 2008
"I agree with most of you.
I think getting piercings on your body is a statement that you're an individual, who you are. and what teenager wants their parents controlling everything except the air they breathe?? But people who don't know much about piercings could really mess themselves up. For example, There is NO way you can sanitise a piercing gun completely. If they pull one of those out RUN!"
-> Posted by Catie / Feb 19, 2008
"I'm 18 and i think that ear piercing without parent's permission should be legal after age 14 and other piercings after 16 (except gentals after 18).
I do think that teens should discuss with their parents about getting the piercing before they get it, whether or not they agree.
Our bodies are exactly that, OUR BODIES and if we can choose to have sex when we want to and to have abortions without parental consent, why not put a piece of metal somewhere!?!"
-> Posted by Emily / Feb 12, 2008
"i agree with wesley
fatasses"
-> Posted by john / Feb 10, 2008
"Piercings a form of art. A minor with an unagreeable parent shouldn't be forced to hold back their creative passion.

~ not cool"
-> Posted by Carissa / Feb 01, 2008
"I don't get it... a piercing? seriously how pathetic can this country get?!
its a piercing! jeeez .
and some one made a really good point, you can get an abortion without your parents permission but you cant get a PIERCING unless your 18? WOW that is very pathetic.."
-> Posted by Andrea / Jan 24, 2008
"ur all fat"
-> Posted by wesley / Nov 29, 2007
"I think that no one should be able to get more than 2 piercings on there body, which would be on both of the sides of your ears. Also that people uunder the age of 16 should get anymore than that, on there body placed anywhere else."
-> Posted by tom / Nov 14, 2007
"i think that your all crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
-> Posted by ya mum / Oct 10, 2007
"i think that the laws should be renforced cause alot of people get alergic reactions and some bieng ripped out causing excrutiating pain"
-> Posted by billza / Oct 10, 2007
"im 17 and i think its your own right to do what you want with your own body, and if your parents really didnt want you to get it done not many people would because thats just causing trouble for themselves. Most parents should respect their childs mind for creativity to want to decorate their body and give thmselves a feeling of individuality."
-> Posted by meeks / Oct 08, 2007
"i think that once you are 16 you should be able to get a pierceing ( as long as it is not a genital pierceing) without parent permission.
but if you are under 16 then you should need parent permission"
-> Posted by Cat / Sep 28, 2007
"it should be ok if you have parents permission!"
-> Posted by Lindsey / Jun 04, 2006
"Its just like California to decide when we can do something. The more this state changes it laws the more it seems that we are heading towards a NAZI state. Whats next are they going to tell us who we may or may not marrie. Then what is it going to be when we will be able to have children. We allow the state to take more and more control of our lives before we know it we will not have any rights."
-> Posted by steve / May 11, 2006
"you can die for your country at 17 but cant get piercings or tatoos what a joke"
-> Posted by james / Sep 14, 2005
"Well, being an 18 year old with many piercings (that i got while i was a minor with my mothers permission), i would say that whether my mother had let me get them before or not i would still have them! We can drive at 16 and risk our lives, buy cigarettes at 18, but can't get piercings till that same age. They're are so many things that we can do that are worse than expressing our individuality with a piercing."
-> Posted by BJ / Aug 31, 2005
"Thank you California Senate for at least passing an age law set for our industry! I think people need to realize the importance of laws in our industry (for the most part) that really doesn't give a rat's ass about the health and safety of it's clients. With all the "ignorant" people out there that assumes everything is clean and taken care of for them, think again.. Ask questions, get informed, educate yourself before you go throwing stones at glass houses."
-> Posted by Sque3z / Aug 30, 2005
"Really now! I am amazed. Why would anyone think that the government is ever going to stop trying to tell people how to be parents. After all our government thinks it has the right to legislate morality...

...And California is probably the most over-legislated state in the Union. If you want less laws vote libertarian, not Democrat or Republican..."
-> Posted by RDT / Aug 29, 2005
"I am a 46 yr. old mother of one 24 year old son, who is an intelligent decision maker, as I am. I never needed a law to fine someone for piercing my son when he was a minor: he decided that he didn't want piercing. We don't need laws made for choices that we can make ourselves, including abortion."
-> Posted by AMF / Aug 27, 2005
"I see that you are not a parent with children or you are a child. Parents are held responsible and liable for what their minor children do therefore they have the right - no, the responsiblity - to know what their children are doing and give their permission."
-> Posted by JD / Aug 26, 2005
"Let's legislate EVERYthing any minor does, then we ALL can be happy. Too much government in EVERYbody's lives!! That's what's wrong with your picture."
-> Posted by AMF / Aug 24, 2005
"But a minor girl can get an abortion without any body's permission or notification to her parents. What's wrong with this picture??"
-> Posted by JD / Aug 24, 2005
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