Jul 4 Sacramento
sacramento
High School Students Defend Right To Wear Shirt
Published: April 28, 2006

An anti-gay demonstration at a local high school has turned into a debate on first amendment rights.

The objection to the gay and lesbian alliance’s “Day of Silence” at high school campuses spilled into a freedom of speech protest. Two Mira Loma High School students were suspended after they refused to take off anti-gay shirts. “The first amendment gives freedom of speech, but the schools take that amendment away,” said Dmitry Kutseako, one of the suspended students.

Lila Matosa is also upset. She suffered religious persecution in Moldova in the former Soviet Union and thought it would be different here. But after seeing her daughter suspended, she has to wonder. “I was shocked because we can’t have freedom, religious freedom.”

School officials say the shirts singled out a group for ridicule, which they claim could lead to confrontation and violence. “The bottom line is that people who send their kids to our school have an expectation that they’ll be safe,” said Principal Chris Hoffman.

Protestors like Victor Choban say they’re expressing a moral belief, not advocating violence. “We don’t hate these guys, we just want to say the truth to them.”

“Students do not relinquish their rights at the school house gates,” argued Brad Dacus, President of the Pacific Justice Institute. His organization is representing 13 Oakmont High School students who were suspended for two days for wearing similar shirts to school. Dacus says school districts are playing favorites with gay and lesbian groups. “They’re silencing students who have different conviction, religous convictions and they’re treating them like second class citizens.”

Reader's Comments
"Well seeing how i"m still in school, i believe they should heavily adress this issue because if we have feelings about something they should be expressed. The shirt didn't involve foul language or pictures...so what's the problem??

If being in school cuts off our freedom to speech then why should we be here. Yes we are learning but, we are losing rights which makes me second guess wheather or mot the school systems are obeying the laws of the constitution!"
-> Posted by Montrice Akins / Nov 13, 2008
"Good. It's about time for someone to burst your bubble of inaccuracy about Christianity. Tough love is harsh. But it IS love.

>I can't see how this conveys Gods love and mercy

That’s because you don't know God's love and mercy. God puts up with you, sinful as you are, and abstains from obliterating you as you deserve. That's His Mercy. God gives you an undeserving way out of destruction -- Christ -- for you to follow obediently. That's His Love.

Them apples be the Truth, like it or not."
-> Posted by Arturo / Nov 17, 2006
"" He who is without sin cast the first stone" Christ didn't persicute sexual sinners he embraced them and encouraged them to do better with their lives. Arturo i am sorry that you must berate and argue with others to get your point across. You solidify the image that Christians are judgemental and harsh and will not rest till you conform to their way(Gods way).I can't see how this conveys Gods love and mercy."
-> Posted by Jenelle / Nov 17, 2006
"Hey, wow. there is a big debate in here. very interesting to me. I thought this topic is about school, but gesh when I came in here it was all about god. Well, as we all know everyone has a god in some kind of way or something they believe in. I don't know why poeple hae to make a big fuss about it. hahaha, but the debates were entertaining though."
-> Posted by LISTENER / Nov 17, 2006
"‘No one christian or otherwise can honestly judge another person when they have done wrong things themselves.’

Says who, Jenelle? You or God? By what authority can you make such a claim? Scripture says that there is NOTHING wrong with judging SO LONG AS judgment accords with God’s, SO LONG AS it is righteous, SO LONG AS the standard in use is God’s Word. God said homosexuality is abominable. Does your judgment accord with His? Are you more righteous than He? Is your standard greater than His?"
-> Posted by Arturo / Jun 16, 2006
""He who is without sin cast the first stone" No one christian or otherwise can honestly judge another person when they have done wrong things themselves. To be christian is to need redemption if you don't feel you need it thats your choice but don't ridicule those that do. I don't believe that anyone has the right to offend anyone. Even christians should know better. WWJD???"
-> Posted by Jenelle/Sacramento / Jun 14, 2006
"Alex, they call us homophobes to mischaracterize us. Caricatures are less scary than real beings. In truth they’re Christo-phobes. They’re more afraid of the Truth than of death. It’s a hopeless condition for them without Christ. As believers our duty is to repent with contrition in our hearts and homes. Contend for the Faith. Remove the wolves in sheep’s clothing from the Church first, then continue to take dominion over God’s creation while awaiting for His return. Start where you stand."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 22, 2006
"Further, let us remember that Christians WERE NOT the majority of Americans during the founding of this nation. They were a minority but, oh were they influential! You never require a majority to dominate a country. A dedicated minority convicted of its beliefs and determined to establish them as the dominant force of the day suffices. Where then are those REAL Christians TODAY that will stand firm convicted that, in obedience to our Lord, He will turn the tide of sin flooding our country?"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 22, 2006
"Ray, we MUST debate the proud unbeliever precisely because their liberal (secular) intellectual agenda is today’s unabated destroyer of the founding fathers' Christian plan intended for our nation. Standing our ground under the Law (Free Speech) is good. It fulfills part of our duty per St. Peter's instructions of silencing the ignorance of foolish men. (1 Pet. 2:14)"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 22, 2006
"We preach Christ crucified and if recieved praise God, if not the seed has been planted or watered."
-> Posted by Ray / May 22, 2006
"Arturo:
Well said brother, but remember, the cross of Christ is foolishness to those perishing.
1 Corinthians 1:18 23-25. What is the gospel? Christ came, he died and is resurrected and seated at God's right hand. This is the message of God's love.When you debate with an intellectual like Mike D. you bring yourself to his level. The liberal intellectual agenda is the major destroyer of the founding fathers Christian plan that was intended for this country."
-> Posted by Ray / May 22, 2006
"Andrew, the debate IS about religion. ALL education IS religious, because ALL instruction about what is right and wrong -- ALL laws, ALL morality -- taught in school appeals to a higher Authority, be it Man or God. Humanism IS a religion. Secularization IS indoctrination. Sodomy is acceptable, even "virtuous," under that religion."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 22, 2006
"Sobering words, Ray. Thank you! Still consider it was no waste for the Apostle Paul at the Areopagus to debate the likes of Michael, for a wider, silent audience stood by hearing the message. Faith comes by hearing. Though indeed by Grace alone our Lord pours Life into the spiritually dead that they may hear, He does call us the living to speak at the cemetery; short of tossing His pearls to the pigs, of course."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 22, 2006
"Andrew of Seattle, There are a lot more interest sophistic games, like prove that your dog is your father for example.

The people with cancer are still humans, the homosexual too, but people with cancer want to be cured. And people with cancer don’t wish the cancer for everybody. This is a major difference."
-> Posted by Alex / May 22, 2006
"Arturo, you know sometime I feel myself not so far from my 4th grader son.

They are using an absolutely new weapon, it called the subject changing. What they call love isn't love, what they call hate isn't hate. We do not afraid people, we don’t afraid mans, why the call us homophobes? The subject changing is a dangerous weapon, but it the same lie. And we have to explain everybody that this is just a lie."
-> Posted by Alex / May 22, 2006
"Moreover doing so, if you maximize a picture...they are indangaring very existence of human race by promoting deadly disease. Lets be open minded and face a fact, if all people around the world will get cancer - there will be no humans on this planet any more...IF all people become homosexual - result would be the same... SO what is the difference ? HELLO !!!"
-> Posted by Andrew of Seattle / May 22, 2006
"This dabate really is not abour religion, it is about a school taking a side of few sexually confused students and enforcing it on rest of the healthy kids, regardless of their moral beliefs and views."
-> Posted by Andrew of Seattle / May 22, 2006
"The dabate should not be about Christianity, it should be about the appropriateness of a school taking sides on an unresolved issue."
-> Posted by Walter E. Wallis / May 21, 2006
"Arturo:

Dear brother, Why do you waste your time debating the king of our hearts and the universe with someone like Michael D. His hatred for Christ jumps off the page at you. It is like an engineer debating with a mental retard about the stress fractures of metal. He has no concept or grasp of Christ or Christianity. God gives the ones that love him wisdom to understand the things that are incomprehensible to people like him."
-> Posted by Ray / May 21, 2006
"Alex, take your message a step deeper. You’re not dealing with 4th graders found cheating on an exam. The sodomites are deeper in the mess of sin than many other sinners. They’re in willful, defiant, vehement, openly expressed rebellion against God’s Law, and pressing intensely even ferociously not merely for acceptance but domination. To them right is wrong and wrong is right, and you better agree or else. Our nation is already under judgment. Be an Elijah."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 19, 2006
"Also, Michael, my assertion of your condition is not a last salvo or some type of slap across your face. It is a summary that acknowledges only too accurately what you've revealed yourself to be, after DAYS of exchanging with you valuable thoughts about Man's fallen condition, God's view on it and His promise of salvation. That you prefer to take offense where none is meant to avoid the real issue (SIN) is yet again another fallacy of diversion by you. Shalom!"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 19, 2006
"Michael, it's not infantile name-calling to call you what you in truth are. In denying your Creator, you believe yourself to be almighty, the center of the universe, a god who, within this century, will soon become the dust under another man's feet (or are you also immortal?). That is why your thinking is so futile and filled with utter (spiritual) foolishness. Your reasoning is also unavoidably corrupted by your spiritual dullness."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 19, 2006
"Michael. I'm sorry in English it spelled like Gödel's Theorem. That's why I can not find this by Google"
-> Posted by Alex / May 19, 2006
"Michael. There is strongly mathematically proven theorem of Hedel, it says you could never stop asking questions. I was trying to find link to this theorem and found the article could interest for you http://www.ldolphin.org/olkhov.html"
-> Posted by Alex / May 19, 2006
"Arturo, I read some about Pelagianism, and think there is small misunderstanding, Telling to the people about dangerous road is a first step, and it does not correlated with the way and possibility to be saved. It's like to say: "hey dude your boat is drowning" is not correlated with this people swimming ability.

But anyway thanks for your warning."
-> Posted by Alex / May 19, 2006
"Michael. A FOOL builds a home on a questionable foundation and forces many to into the living room.

You know, you have to choose a time to stop questions and to start to build. If you really want a home."
-> Posted by Alex / May 19, 2006
"Oh yes, the "call names and insult" defense. Used by elementary students around America. How about some "your momma's so fat" jokes while you continue your meaningless and shallow responses. I am finished with this. You, apparently, are as well. Hold us back, Hold us back......."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 19, 2006
"Blah, blah is the only language you understand, Michael -- Mr. Almighty, Center-of-the-Universe, god...and, within this century, soon-to-be dust under another man's feet!"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 19, 2006
"Well, that was a long response that contained nothing substantial.
Blah, blah? Who can argue with that? You got me. It is genius....."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 19, 2006
"Blah, blah, Michael. You say, "I and many others feel it is wrong to..." Feel, you say? Feel?! So it's all about YOUR opinion. I see... YOU'RE the center of the universe then. It's all about YOU and the majority. So that's what determines right and wrong, huh? We're back to YOU and your shadow. Well, indeed YOU have built your home on the sand, and it won't prevail against the floods of YOUR life."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 18, 2006
"The Bible is your foundation. A FOOL builds a home on a questionable foundation and forces many to into the living room. You have faith and hope in words within, but that does not make them true, even though you have faith in their truth. Faith is different from fact. Encroachment on people's live's and rights, based on apocryphal information, will always be met with contention."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 18, 2006
"You believe the bible to be written by god. I do not. Neither is not necessarily wrong or right. I cannot prove god not to exist, but you cannot prove him to exist. Until it is proven, I and many others feel it is wrong to condemn others based on laws of faith. It is a right and a choice to follow his laws, as it is a right and a choice not to."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 18, 2006
"Alex: Great disposition! Humbling spirit, bro! Here are some sites that would serve as a fine starting point for you:

www.contra-mundum.org
www.crta.org

In His Grace!"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 18, 2006
"Arturo. The frontline requires better training than this.

May be you're right, I'm always open to study."
-> Posted by Alex / May 18, 2006
"Ah, brother Alex... <sigh> You and your Pelagian antinomianism...

Please grow up. The frontline requires better training than this."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 18, 2006
"Here's you, Michael: "A proud and haughty man—'Scoffer' is his name; He acts with arrogant pride." (Prov. 21:24)

I've been trying to answer you according to your folly, lest you keep fooling yourself as wise in your own eyes. But factually, I ought to STOP answering you according to your folly, for I'd become a fool like you."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 18, 2006
"Jessy, I'm not understand what are you fighting for, we don't want to fight with anybody, we love you, all we want is to say you it's a Dangerous Road, like remind you about traffic sign, your free will was given you by The God, and could not be withdrawn. Could you be in tolerance if your friend or brother or just a neighbor is in danger, I believe you're going to warn him, and then you could respect his choice. But you must give him a notice."
-> Posted by Alex / May 17, 2006
"You do not rattle me, you are more laughable than anything. I am not superman. Thanks for the lift, but he is a fictional being as well (You know a lot about fictional beings). "Hold us back, hold us back", go get em' , bud!"
-> Posted by Michael D / May 17, 2006
"...hold us back!"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 17, 2006
"As to your irreverent complacency, as I called it once before, Michael, we REAL Christians will continue to rattle you out of it, as I’ve managed to do since you replied to my first remarks 20 posts ago in the last 10 days! I called you a faker once. I do so again. You act like you don’t care about Christ, God or His people. But you’re full of it. You’re watching, just in case your super secularist powers fail to hold us back. And they won’t…"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 17, 2006
"Theocracy? Huh! A Christian Republic is good enough for me, so long as we live according to TRUE Law above distortions or perversions of it. Only Christianity makes this possible. Your belief in separation is a belief in the supremacy of YOUR will over all things. You’re not against religion, SO LONG AS it doesn’t interfere with your sense of individualistic supremacy, superman. But you’ll roast Christ’s Church if we’re not passive or pliable. No deal. Sodomy is sin, bud, and unlawful, says God."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 17, 2006
"Obviously, we will never agree on anything church related. You are wishful of a theocracy. I am a believer in complete seperation, and disregard opinions of crazy "you will burn in hell if" christians. I am not against religion, just those who try to force into the lives of the non-religious. I am now bored with all of this. What do you know about the laws of bigfoot?"
-> Posted by Michael D / May 17, 2006
"Also, Michael, separation of Church and State means that the State will do his job and the Church will do hers, and the two won't interfer with each other's duties. The Church's job is to be the State's conscience rather than his sword, and the State's job is to protect the Church rather than violate her.A rogue State rapes the Church like a drunken courtier does a king's bride; then defiantly expects no judgment."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 16, 2006
"Wrong, Michael. The U.S. is a Constitutional Republic with an embedded democratic decision-making process. The rule of law and not majority tyranny defines this nation. No law is law apart from God's Law. Therefore, His Kingdom's Law rules over this land and over your life too, transgressors' violations notwithstanding."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 16, 2006
"Well, your god's kingdom may be a monarchy, but the U.S. is a democracy and recognizes the separation of church and state. Although, many do not agree with homosexuality, it is here to stay. I have seen no gay turned into a pillar of salt by a god, but many beaten and persecuted by hate-filled men."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 16, 2006
"Well, what do you know? We agree on something else! The Kingdom of God is not a democracy, Michael. By definition it is a monarchy. When Jesus said the Kingdom of God is at hand, i.e. has arrived, and proceeded to tell Pilate, ‘My kingdom is not of this world,’ He made it clear over what He ruled. He controls (here!, now!) the meta of all physics and, in so doing, controls the physics as well, as annoying as that is to your rebellious mind. Also He authored the Bible with Man as the stylus."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 15, 2006
"Their is a big difference between fear and annoyance. I in no way fear christians or their god. CHRIST and GOD did not write the bible, to say they did is ignorant. I am not the one that wants ALL to follow the laws of one made-up individual, that is narrow minded. You people want all or nothing, that is not democracy, that is a dictatorship."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 15, 2006
"Nevertheless, one more thing worth considering, Michael, is the fact that real Christians are no pushovers. While in the minority, they drive change by calling for repentance. While in the majority, they drive change by calling for repentance. See the difference? Either case consistently requires OBEDIENCE to God’s Word FIRST by the individual Christian THEN by those under his authority. Consequently, under a Christian CIVIL magistrate homosexuality would be a capital crime."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 15, 2006
"It’s pitiable how much you fear us, Michael, and how you strive to build straw men, digress and avoid dealing with Reality for the sake of “being in the right.” Metaphors are meant to be handled as metaphors; narratives as narratives; poetry as poetry; laws as laws. The Bible is rich in such forms, but its substance doesn’t change, because its Author doesn’t change. What’s so difficult about that, except for your narrow-mindedness, obstinacy and sheer, comfy ignorance? Stay afraid, then."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 15, 2006
"How do I misread christianity? Oh! Thats right! You are speaking in metaphor and allegory. You say things that can be interpreted a number of different ways. Words not exactly meant to be taken at face value. Just like those in the bible. Your fight may not be against flesh and blood, but look at how much blood christians have spilt in their holy crusade."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 15, 2006
"How you misread Christianity, Michael! How you mock! You look at everything carnally, worldly, as if all that existed is only that which can be perceived with your 5 senses. Who said you should be scared of us? Didn’t I tell you that our fight is not against flesh and blood? You’re spiritually dead. Talking to you is like speaking with a zombie. No wonder ‘The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise.’ (Prov. 12:15)"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 15, 2006
"The more you launch out with your lions, swords, and war talk, the more David Koresh-like you sound. Your words don't scare, they do not intimidate, and they do not make me worry, but WOW do they remind me of Charlton Heston. Time for christ to cleanse the temple."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 15, 2006
"Lastly, Jesse and Michael, nowhere in life can there be found neutral common ground between Christians and secularists. Our worldviews do not mesh. You may pretend to be neutral. But that’s just a pretense. If not with Christ, then against Him. We shall all stand before His judgment seat. “For it is written: ‘As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’” So long as we have Liberty, we shall say this freely; else, while the lions devour us!"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"The Christ of the Bible comes to defeat sin and reconcile His people to God. He is a warrior and a conciliator. He is also the fulfillment of the Law and, thus, our only salvation from judgment. He doesn’t compromise. He is not afraid. His people are called to imitate Him. You just don’t like what we look like when we actually obey."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"When Jesus gave marching orders to his Apostles, He made clear what His teachings would lead to for those who followed Him: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household’” Does this sound like appeasement to you? The Jesus you quote isn’t the Christ of the Bible."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"Jesse, you worship what you fear, and you fear the State instead of the LORD, who appoints all governments and holds them accountable for upholding His Law. You assume too much also about what these children are protesting against. They’re protesting against being muzzled in a country of liberty. Also they’re protesting on their own time, on public sidewalks. Unlike most so-called Christians, they’re not wimps, caricatures or phonies. They know their side. Christ’s Church is NEVER neutral."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"Jesse, what is so demeaning about calling a spade a spade? God said sodomy is an abomination and a transgression to His Law. What’s so demeaning about quoting Him PLUS adding that He has provided a way out of living under His judgment? What if the students said with their T-shirts ‘Drug addition is sin. Jesus can free you,’ or ‘Covetousness is sin’ or ‘Murder is sin’? Would you be so inflamed? And since when is right and wrong something not to be taught in school?"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"The Christians were not allowed the same consideration as the homosexuals, and so, in the manner of Act Up, they acted up.
If all the homosexuals wanted was to eliminate bullying, they could have had a demonstration of tolerance, but they want more, something the Christians are denied, the right to openly advocate their position without criticism or contradiction."
-> Posted by Walter E. Wallis / May 14, 2006
"(cont)(cont) notice. A school should be neutral, like a church. If you allow discourse it escalates, and turns to throwing stones, fists, and shooting guns. Look at gangs killing each other based on wearing colors. If you have a bunch of Christians getting out of control, what will happen to other student demonstrators who are more volatile? Welcome to “POLITICALLY CORRECT” CA, where we are so afraid of offending anyone, that we bend over backwards to appease everyone, and please no one."
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 14, 2006
"(cont) Michael pointed out if the School allowed one to demonstrate peacefully and nonviolently, and the other protested with name calling and demeaning them. This was not Christian behavior. I assumed they were protesting AT the School, not across the street. But if those kids skipped school to protest anywhere outside the School, the School has the authority to act, it’s called truancy. And if they are protesting during non school hours, it would defeat their purpose as no one would"
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 14, 2006
"Arturo: Immigrant Christian Russian community, I’ve heard that name, didn’t they do a protest march recently? Is that formed from the Russian Orthodox church? Wasn’t Rasputin a Russian Orthodox Monk? Mathew 7 is pretty clear about Judge ye not.. and frankly you stated it pretty well on my behalf. I haven’t given my opinion, and I hardly condone Gay behavior or the lifestyle. I think there is no reason to address it in a School, nor put it in any school books. I am for rights, and as"
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 14, 2006
"Furthermore, Michael, in America I don’t need your permission to believe or worship what I wish, even less to speak up my mind publicly with my fellow believers quoting Christ on obeying God’s Law. That it is bothersome to call sodomites what the Bible calls them – sinners – and voice it openly by saying that Jesus can free them from this sin is only an indication of how efficacious God’s Word is. It wouldn’t bother anyone if it weren’t hitting the mark! Law provokes. It defines transgression."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"Yes, Michael! Finally we’re on the same wavelength! You ARE an absolutist because you believe something with ABSOLUTE conviction and preach to me that YOU are right. On what basis have you built your conviction against Christianity? Who cares? But that it’s a conviction and that you assert to impact my behavior on that basis is no crock. This is America. Keep your secularism out of my home, politics, fed and state laws. I told you. Our worldviews are at war and will collide in the public square."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"Walter. I as well don't think the school should celebrate either one. There is a difference in methods of voicing. One group was trying peacefully to show pride and gain acceptance, the other was calling them names and damning them. Whether one agrees/not agrees with a side, the christian method should be bothersome."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 14, 2006
"Arturo, am an absolutist because I think christianity is a crock? As I have said, believe and worship what you wish, just keep it out of my home, politics, federal law, state law, and especially the White house. I have no problem with christianity, other than their pushy, convert the world at all cost ways."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 14, 2006
"Jesse, the school’s authority is limited to doing not only what is right but doing it within its sphere of jurisdiction only. Organized protests within school grounds are within the school Administration’s purview to address. Student-led protests ACROSS THE STREET from the school are none of the school’s Administration business. They’re a civil matter. Also it’s ludicrous to expect that schools allow demonstrations only if every participant agrees with the agenda. Activist schools are illegal!"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"Walter, I appreciate the attempt at neutrality, but the line has long been drawn and the ostrich will be the first one fed to the lions. Neutrality is impossible. The State won’t placate one side through compromise with the other. On this matter particularly the American Christian Church will take a stand or fall under totalitarian rule in our country. The immigrant Christian Russian community in Sacramento, having lived and fled from such conditions in the USSR, knows this only too well."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"Additionally, Jesse, Jesus said: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” Jesse, I said before, denominations be damned! Real Christians do as Christ commands."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"The meaning of ‘judge ye not’ is not what we read into it, Jesse, but what Christ says it is. Quote fully what He said, then: ‘For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.’ What measure have you been using to measure me? You’ve been using YOUR opinion. YOU’RE the standard. What measure am I using? Scripture. GOD’S Word is the standard. Measure me with THAT standard, for your opinion is not my judge; Christ’s Word is."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"Michael, God does not need to prove His existence to you, His mere creature. As darkened as your heart is, you know this much: You didn’t bring yourself into existence. Furthermore, you and I have not been contending whether one opinion is greater than another. Law and Righteousness aren’t the fruit of opinion. There is absolute Good and absolute opposition to Good. Though you tell me what I OUGHT NOT do, you openly reject absolutism. Faker! You’re an absolutist in denial! But you don’t fool me."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 14, 2006
"(cont) You’re right though, if schools allow demonstrations, they need to allow opposite views to demonstrate also. Schools should not allow demonstrations unless every student participates with the same voice. You saw those pro illegal students skip school to protest, where were the against illegal students, oh stuck in school. Guess they were doing a silent protest."
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 14, 2006
"Walter: The anti-gay students were allowed to demonstrate, but two were suspended for wearing anti-gay T-shirts and refusing to take them off. That was the issue. I don't know what the T-shirts said, but just a week before this happened the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that schools could restrict what students wear to prevent disruptions. Ironically that ruling was from an incident in 2004 where a student wore a T-shirt saying, "homosexuality is shameful' on it."
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 14, 2006
"Some of you miss the point. It was official recognition of one position on a question and official rejection of the other side that made this newsworthy. If one faction at school got permission to celebrate Giants opening day but another group was denied a
a's day, it would be just as inappropriate."
-> Posted by Walter E. Wallis / May 14, 2006
"What does JUDGE YE NOT, OR YOU SHALL BE JUDGED mean to you. I would tend to think the God would be just as disappointed in these Christian protestors, as he would be the Gays. Who are they to judge another, to condemn their lifestyles, and to do it in the name of God. I see the Christian protestors impudence as unchristian."
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 14, 2006
"Arturo: I picked a news item at random, I’m not sure what the Mormon’s practice, but they say God is what they believe in. There’s a story of a Roman Catholic Priest sentenced for killing a Nun this week, a couple of Catholic Priests accused of child molestation, there’s a story on this site about the Episcopal Church considering a Gay Bishpop, and other religions in the news."
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 14, 2006
"God will never be proven to exist or not exist, nor will the flying spaghetti monster. Does this mean if I believed in a fsm, I should try to change federal and state laws, get fsm justices appointed, and wear shirts saying nonbelievers are going to the realm of the evil meatball? It is a right, but not the right thing to do. And yes, you are a robot. You have been programed."
-> Posted by Micheal D / May 14, 2006
"Jesse: Mormons believe in a god not in the Biblical God, as do oh so many lost souls professing a form of Christianity. So what’s your point? Is it that Man is lost in a sea of religious pluralism? No. Rather you try to build a case for lawlessness presuming that, since we’re all equally off-course sinners, no one ought to make any assertion favoring absolute Law. But the same condemning Word of judgment from God proclaims liberty from this bondage. Why not listen? Where’s the idiocy in that?"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 13, 2006
"Oh gee no, Michael, I have no opinions… I forgot to tell you: I’m a robot, a puppet, a patsy… C’mon, man! How can you ask such foolish questions? Why do you digress so much? All an opinion proves is that he who expresses it believes IT to be true. It doesn’t prove that the IT he believes in fact IS true. We know YOU believe no God exists, but that’s no proof He DOESN’T exist, nor is MY belief in His existence proof thereof. Have you ever heard of objectivism?"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 13, 2006
"(cont) But I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you, as that old saying is oh so true…

Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience......"
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 13, 2006
"Arturo: You seem pretty judgmental. Mormon's believe in God, Jews, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. Native people never exposed to religious belief's have something they believe and follow. My point was that so called "Christian" believer's commit sins and crimes while hiding behind religion. They judge others to vindicate themselves or justify their sinful actions."
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 13, 2006
"Do you have any of your own opinions, or do you ask the man-written bible for all answers. To hate god means that I would have to believe in his existance. God exists in the same way Zues, Apollo, and Athena existed...they were all made up as a way to scare and control populations into following laws."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 13, 2006
"Above all things, Michael and Jesse, you fail to see the utter futility of your thinking. You live determined to carry on with YOU being the sole measure of your life, yet neither one of you can keep yourself from even avoiding a simple cold by the sheer power of your will! Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Foolish reprobacy! Don’t you know this very night your soul can be required of you? Then whose will the things be for which you’ve labored on this earth? You’re poor toward God."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 13, 2006
"The believers who offend you by saying ‘Homosexuality is sin. Jesus can free you,’ are those who are living up truly to the derogatory term ‘Christian,’ assigned as a taunt to followers of Christ by their opponents in the 1st-Century. Jesus said, ‘A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.’ The Biblical Christ offends you. His people offend you. Hating Christ, you hate His people and the Father."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 13, 2006
"As I said before, you speak of what you know not, trying to sound so authoritative in your ignorance. Not knowing orthodoxy, one of you regards Mormons as Christians, though factually they're heretics. Another wishes to separate Christ from real rather than so-called Christians to build your straw man. You presume Christianity as illogical and superstitious, though we’ve been carrying on a rational discourse for days. You misquote Scripture. You’re not after truth, but to bully us into silence."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 13, 2006
"Arturo: Judge ye not...As we speak there's a $100,000 reward out for Warren Jeffs, the Church Leader of Latter Day Saints in Colorado City, Arizona; and Hildale, Utah. His "sect" practices Polygamy and child molestation and guess it's widespread outside their community also. They often underbidded even Illegal immigrant workers, as they use child labor for heavy construction jobs. This under the "guise" of christianity."
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 13, 2006
"Your god does not offend me. I hope christians an christ can be separated, otherwise it does not speak very highly of your christ. Hey, believe what you want, worship what you want, but beware of drinking grape punch. I am going to go back to the world of science, logic, and things that can be proven to exist."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 13, 2006
"Yet another caricature you adhere to, Michael! Mature Christians know that both belief and faith are bestowed freely by God, and they're neither merited nor earned. We don't wrestle with conforming to the Law but with living in grace and dependent on God's forgiveness rather than on our own impossible ability to please Him, which is why we're one with Christ. You can't speak of us without speaking of Him. How does He offend you?"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 12, 2006
"Again, I talk of christians, you talk of christ. They are not the same. Christians do wrestle, they wrestle themselves to comform to their god's laws, and most time fail. Under a cloud of unknowingness called faith, christians force their beliefs on others. For this is the reason so many do not respect the actions of christians. Yes, they definately "offend"."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 12, 2006
"More than language, it is a way of life. Michael, you better believe it. Don’t let any so-called Christian kid you. REAL Christians are soldiers. But we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. You mischaracterize Christ-likeness as wimpiness. Rather we offend with the Truth and defend with Love, as Christ did. In so doing He died nailed to a tree, the coward!"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 12, 2006
""Taking prisoners", "Demolish stongholds", "Weapons"? This is your language? If this is the language of christianity, I am glad I am not involved. Yes, christians are paranoid, just look at all of their rediculous activity over "The Da Vinci Code"."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 12, 2006
"You need not condescend to me, Michael. Your naturalistic and my spiritual belief systems are at war with each other. I'm not taking any prisoners. Are you? Except, the weapons I fight with are not of this world but have divine power to demolish strongholds, like your irreverent complacency. Must be working. Why else would you fuss so much about "paranoid Christians"?"
-> Posted by Arturo / May 11, 2006
"and my grandfather wasnt a tansvesite"
-> Posted by Jennifer / May 11, 2006
"Actaully, my grandmother wasnt a ##### like the women in your family, and she lives in Ohio"
-> Posted by Jennifer / May 11, 2006
"Arturo, you have faith that a god exist's, and I am truly happy for you. I do not share your beliefs; so, his laws do not apply to me. Quote any passages from the bible you wish, for me, they are simply literature. Will I burn in hell, no. For me, there is no hell except the hell that pushy christians create with their infusion into politics and intrusion into my and other's lives."
-> Posted by Michael D / May 11, 2006
"Walter: T-V? I know the Korean War was televised as I’ve seen video clips of Macarthur from early 50’s. But the U.S. had 400,000 troups there, and with the allies a little over a million troups. The Chinesse, Russians, and North Koreans had over a million but probably 40,000 troups less overall. I was thinking a bloody stump was what’s left after cutting off an appendage, am I wrong?"
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 11, 2006
"So, God’s Law isn’t for you, huh? Yours is a reprobate’s stroll, a walk in the futility of your mind, having your understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in you, because of the blindness of your heart. Being past feeling, you’ve given yourself over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness, Michael. So says God. (Ephesians 4:17-19) Repent, man, through Christ."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 11, 2006
"Fear?! Here's what we true (not so-called) Christians believe: 'For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.' (2 Tim. 1:7) Like I said, all you know of Christ, Christians and Christianity is a CARICATURE. We're also called to 'contend for the faith,' but not the way you suggest. We’re to ‘give a reason for the hope within us.’ So what if it offends you? Truth, like salt, can sting, but it also seasons and preserves from decay. You fear obedience."
-> Posted by Arturo / May 11, 2006
"No, Jessie, my war was korea, and there were 900 million Chinese. I'm still here and a few of them ain't.
Unlike you, I know what the difference in equipment is, and a T-V would have brought back a bloody stump."
-> Posted by Walter E. Wallis / May 11, 2006
"Walter: Fought in Vietnam did you, there are only about 80 million people “left” in Vietnam after you opened up a can of whip a$$!

Uh, that wasn’t Jennifer’s Grandmother that you had an ‘encounter’ with, that was her transvestite Grandfather! Good thing though that you put those Rio Linda pansies on notice! Maybe you should have a T-shirt printed up, I HAVE A HANKERING, FOR A WANKERING! Let them know they’d better not mess with you or you’ll beat them up and down 3rd and K in Rio Linda!"
-> Posted by jesse of sacramento / May 11, 2006
"Actually, gods law is not for me. It is for those who choose to live their lives under laws written by ancient men that wish to control the populace, and for those who are brainwashed into believing the bible as fact and truth. Why are christians so defensive and paranoid if they are so right?"
-> Posted by Michael D / May 11, 2006
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